Salmon and/or sewin flies?

[brigydon]

Having returned to river fly fishing this year after a lifetime of bass fishing, I was surprised at the developments that had taken place in the design of salmon flies ... but equally astonished to find that the same old ‘classic’, traditional sea trout flies (as suggested by Falkus et al) were still predominantly the patterns suggested under headings of ‘sea trout flies’.

Whilst trawling through past threads in this forum, I was interested to see the comment from a contributor (under a description of a Frances salmon fly) that “as a shrimp pattern it is of course completely useless for sea trout”. A further entry (referring to the Cascade shrimp pattern) stated that “as a shrimp pattern it is of course not at all a sea trout pattern as shrimps are not on the menu in a sea trout’s diet”. Another member of the forum immediately jumped in with the observation that in coloured water “the cascade accounts for 90% of my sea trout”. Furthermore a reliable fly tying company markets the Black Boar Shrimp as “very effective for salmon or sea-trout around the world”. Is it?

So my question is this! ... while Cascades, Pot-Bellied Pigs and Ally's Shrimps were designed for salmon, how have members fared using these ‘shrimp’ patterns for sewin. Have they ‘accidentally’ hooked sea trout while fishing for salmon ... or have members consciously targeted sewin with these ‘modern’ shrimp patterns? Do I embrace the Black Boar or return to the Mallard and Claret days of my youth?

[mepps4me]

Brigydon,
Although I have only a very limited experience of catching sewin on the fly, the three that I did catch at the end of season were caught on small cascade type flies (size 11 and 13 salar) while I was after salmon. I also saw a 6lb sewin being caught on the Tywi in September on a cascade by another angler, which has convinced me that it must be a decent fly to use at this time of year. I do intend to use this type of fly earlier next season while actually targeting sewin to see what happens. As you suggest, maybe a black / silver pattern, or even something yellow may be better earlier in the year. Over the winter I will tie up a few and hopefully find out next year.

[brigydon]

Thanks for responding mepps4me ... I have seen quite a few reports throughout the UK of Cascades doing well in the day for sea trout (sometimes admittedly by anglers targeting salmon) that I’m now convinced it’s a pretty rock solid sewin selection. It is a bit of a ‘streamer’ style fly however (despite the ‘shrimp’ title) so I’m not surprised at its success.... but I’m still not sure about more obvious shrimp imitation patterns with boar bristle tails (e.g. Black Boar Shrimps, Pot-Bellied Pigs) ... and I’m hoping that someone on the forum is going to confirm that these also have worked for sewin.

[steelheadnut]

I too have caught my share,as have others on the flamethrower/cascade style and pots whilst fishing for Salmo Salar. Myself in heavily coloured down to light peat stained waters during daylight hours.
I wouldn't use these personally on my night time excursions, even though they most probably would catch some Sewin, but I much prefer to use the patterns that have over the years(too many for me to count now) accounted for quite a few fish, (if it ain't broken don't fix it).
One of my favourite cast setup's for my local area would be March brown s/b or Peter ross (silver or gold) point, pennel or better still williams fav. middle dropper, silver invicta or better at times ermine moth pattern, but any sedge pattern would do for top dropper. Further down river some streamer patterns and muddlers wake lures at times.
All of these flies are simple to tie, i.e. single hackle, single wing material.
Whereas the Salmon flies require multi hackle and/or wing materials in they're construction, and my personal preference for night time excursions after Sewin is to keep it simple.
Why take 15-20 or more mins tying a (sometimes) elaborate fly when simplicity works very well.
My best snake fly is nothing more than a mylar body and a bit of hair.
Set in my ways? probably.
Would I catch more fish by changing my pattern choice? probably not, but would I catch more by changing tactics and/or rod and line setup? Very likely at times, but I'm happy enough at this time in my life to be able still cast a team of flies using the same tactics I've used for the last 40+ years.
The fish don't know or care(unless they get caught) if I'm using the old traditionals or modern flies.I think what counts is knowing how to present whatever concoction we care to cast to them and at the depth that'll induce them to hurl themselves at the offerings.

Cap

[jj1]

I do catch sewin on my salmon flies as i do catch salmon on my sewin flies, but, the delivery method and tactics vary greatly between the two! My sewin flies are much much smaller and the speed they are fished at is far greater than what would be employed for salmon. If i took a middle ground approach (which i have tried) i tended to catch less of each than if i had targeted a specific species!
sewin day flies have come on in development in much the same way that salmon flies have but the small band in the know have just not divulged them into the public domain.
i rarely spin these days and 99% of my sewin come to the fly, and it realy is amazing how many fish will take a size 12 in water only deemed fit for worm, i think water selection (where to fish), depth, current speed etc is probably the most important factor.
jon

[brigydon]

Both of the above posts hit the nail on the head with the statements that presentation is the key factor regardless of fly selection...and I can’t argue with that!

The ‘middle ground approach' is interesting though ...and possibly ‘less of each’ could still total more than ‘all of one type?' I still think that the development between the ‘Classic’ salmon flies and their modern counterparts is far greater than that found in sea trout patterns though...

But ...re. Jon’s ‘new developments’ and the ‘small band in the know have just not divulged them into the public domain’ ... this is just going to keep me awake at nights! {;

[jj1]

Brigydon, are u talkin about daytime or night seatrouting? I may have got a little confused lol, day and night methods are poles apart.
jon

[T7]

A cascade doesn't look much like a shrimp. It is essentially a bright fly used generally in water with a bit of colour during the day. In those circumstances I don't think a sea trout (or salmon) would be mistaking the fly for an actual shrimp.

Surely sea trout feed on those little shrimps you see in rockpools etc?? And if not, why not?

[jj1]

From what i gather, when the smolts run out to sea they predominantly feed on small crustations and small fry, the prey items get larger as the sewin grows, and as far as the bristol channel and its approaches are concerned, the sewin populations feed predominantly on sandeel, young herring and an abundance of sprat which stay all winter and gives the fish in the area their high growth rates.
this would account for their love of big flies at night but not for their taste for small dark jobs in the day! Yes a few do take big flashy jobs (ie cascades) in daylight but far far more hit the small stuff. Ever spun and have sewin chase the swivel? Its that that put me onto the small stuff many moons ago. The question is, do sewin take small flies as imitations of quick moving crustations or of a memory of taking flies in river pre smolting, what ever they take it as, its just a reaction as the sewin generally has stopped feeding, so we have to play on that reaction they have and take advantage of it, ive spent 25 years chasing them in the day with various fly methnds and i can honestly say that unless ur fly is in the water u wont catch any!
jon

[steelheadnut]

Bl*&<y hell who told the Sewin that there are "new developments in the offing".
That's all the "old" patterns redundant,who can I bribe for some insider knowledge then ~#.
If anything it'll be a variation on presentation rather than that elusive catch everything secret weapon that'll produce the goods IMHO.
The "classics" will still account for any fish you care to cast to.
Why do the flamethrowers, cascades and ally's to name a few do so well on Salmon?
They are the patterns in the water.
Same can be said for the Sewin flies, if they're in the swim (regardless of pattern) they will account for hookups, providing the presentation is ok.
No doubt somebody will bring out some failsafe pattern with some material that will be essential in the tying, "a must have" if you're going to bag up every time you venture onto the river bank.
I'm all for trying something new, but why should I when I'm doing alright thank you with my out of date patterns.
Like I said the fish don't know I'm using a secret weapon, or maybe my March brown or Peter ross are the ones!!!!!!!!

Cap

[brigydon]

Whoah! Hell’s teeth gentlemen ... what have I started?

To go back to my first entry: there’s been a gap of 40 years in my river fly fishing and looking at the fly box of my teenage years it would seem that little has changed in sewin fishing, since its contents (Alexandra, Butcher, Teal Blue & Silver, Peter Ross, Stoats Tail, Dark Mackerel, Silver Wilkinson, Zulus, Dunkeld, Invicta etc...) still seem to reflect the current catalogues of the commercial fly tiers. Just some ‘Snake’s and ‘Jambos’ and I would seem to be back in business!
Leaving aside presentation issues (which I fully appreciate) I simply wondered whether modern salmon patterns in smaller sizes were equally (or even more!) successful for sea trout ... (such as a size 12 Black Boar)... since, as T7 points out, shrimps are eaten by sewin in the estuary. My enquiry was really to find out whether sea trout anglers today had forsaken the traditional patterns... as salmon anglers apparently have to a large extent, or at least substituted more agile materials.
Re. steelheadnut’s “I'm all for trying something new, but why should I when I'm doing alright thank you with my out of date patterns”... this may be entirely the case, and it would be impertinent for me to challenge experience. As a bass angler for fifty years however, modern lures (particularly from Japan) have transformed the sport in the last decade and my catch rate has exponentially increased as more effective artificial lures have been developed. No doubt I would catch bass with the old red rubber eel of the 1960’s, but I can promise you it would never out-fish modern ‘Soft Plastics’ and ‘Hard’ lures.
I am happy to discover that my old sewin flies still possess their power of old!

[steelheadnut]

I am happy to discover that my old sewin flies still possess their power of old!

They will provided you have them on your cast and not in the flybox :>.

So o.k. some might think they've come into possesion of the holy grail of fishing, that "catch everything on the first cast fly" on one of they're outings be it day or night.
Have they?
They go out next time flog it to death with said pattern for nowt.
What happened there, this is supposed to be the best fly/lure ever.
Another joe blogs comes along with his offerings and starts producing fish.
"What have you got on the cast there mate?" you ask him "Is it one of these?", and you show him your offering.
"No, but I can't tell you what I've got" or maybe hell try and fob you off with any pattern that comes to mind there and then, when in most cases that killer fly is anything you care to place in the Sewins field of vision and at the depth it's more inclined to take.
That first night could have been fresh shoal in the pool and eager to hit anything that disturbed the water, angler just happened to get the depth right, maybe the fish were on the fin and eager to take on or just under the surface, or a myriad of other explanations.
I've been at it for far too long and am still flummoxed by the Sewin on more occasions than I care to admit, but will still persevere with what I 've always used, because I enjoy the sessions and know sooner or later that tug will come.
By the way, I do like what's in your box already, you sure it isn't mine :> :> :>.

Cap

[T7]

Presentation, depth and profile are the 3 things I think about when fishing. The actual pattern/colour etc I am less concerned about. Although I enjoy fly tying so coming up with a new killer creation is always exciting even though deep down I know it probably is not and better than what is already in my fly box.

[phl]

Presentation, depth and profile are the 3 things I think about when fishing.

I don't doubt that's right: but after many years of trying to catch seatrout, with rather limited success, I'm still trying to put my finger on whatever it is makes some seatrout fishers so much more successful than me. Can anyone explain the key to the "presentation" question?

Paul

[jj1]

Sorry guys/cap, because salmon flies where mentioned i automatically thought you where on about day time sewin! All the flies mentioned are great nite time catchers and most i use myself, its the day thats different, thats all. Im with T7 in that coverage is a major factor as is confidence/self belief, with out both u limit ur chances of success!
remembering where you caught, on what, in what water conditions and by what style and logging all that info away until the next time the same set of circumstances apply and so on and so on, thats when the confidence builds, problem is that these days with fewer fish around, its harder to gain that knowledge, but its still possible.